Laymen’s Evangelical Fellowship a year after Joshua Daniel

It’s a year since Mr. Joshua Daniel, president of the Laymen’s Evangelical Fellowship passed away. The leadership has passed on to his son John Daniel. Most leaders when they take over an organisation bring in new ideas, organisational structures and steer the organisation forwards. With John spending most of his time in the US, there is little indication that he plans to directly manage the oraganisation from India just as his father failed to do or atleast go around preaching the gospel which his father did. Instead LEF seems to be looking backwards with their never ending admiration of the Daniel family and seems to continue as a personality cult.

LEF TV programs are still featuring Mr. Joshua Daniel. If LEF is the greatest and the best as we were made to believe why isn’t there anybody else in LEF who can preach on TV? Transcripts of Mr. N. Daniel’s messages were read in many centres for decades. Now they are playing back recordings of Joshua Daniel. The head quarters where live preaching happened in the Wednesday prayer meetings has switched to recorded messages of the dead man.

Their magazine Christ is Victor (Indian version) hardly had any articles by living people except for Joshua Daniel’s articles. Other articles were generally by people already dead or about people who were already dead. (There is nothing wrong with such articles but the problem is the imbalance) Now even though Mrs. Lily Daniel has taken over as the editor, editorials are being penned by the deceased Joshua Daniel! Articles by Lily Daniel, John Daniel and Lydia Daniel appear sporadically. It is sad that the magazine is unwilling to open itself to non-Daniel living Christians but continues to prop up N. Daniel and Joshua Daniel. In the September issue, Mrs Lily Daniel writes about an incident where an immigration officer mentioned to her that he knew and appreciated Joshua Daniel and then she correlates that incident with Hebrews 11:4 “he being dead yet speaketh”. Abel had sacrificed a more excellent sacrifice than his brother Cain and though he was murdered, God Himself approved it and this speaks to all humanity. I am unable to see how recognition in an airport can be compared to the glorious recognition of Abel by God Himself. This reminds me of Liz Van Camp who wrote on Facebook saying that her father was interceding in heaven. This shows either a total lack of understanding of Christianity or a blatant way to deceive gullible people and perpetuate the personality cult of the Daniels. John Daniel quotes “Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set. “ (Prov 22:28) in the October issue while describing his father achievements.

It is interesting to note that “JD” in the editorial of the September issue of Christ is Victor has called LEF “as a place which gives a little dose of opium to people” and that “some people are beginning to use the fellowship as a place where they get a dose of religious opium.” This is apparently a reference to a quote by Karl Marx which is often condensed to “Religion is the opiate of the masses.” Marx’s contention was that religion gives people artificial, illusory happiness; like opium does to a drug addict. LEF with Daniels as leaders seems to be giving an artificial, illusory confidence to many people. And as usual the leaders are not culpable but it’s the people who are to be blamed. It is sad that people are unable to open their eyes even after such disparagement.

As always, I encourage my readers not to be deceived. Paul warns us in 1Timothy 4:7 (ISV) “Do not have anything to do with godless myths and fables of old women. Instead, train yourself to be godly.” Just as sportsmen train themselves for the competitions train yourselves in godliness. Seek Biblical preachers, teachers and churches.

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32 Comments

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32 responses to “Laymen’s Evangelical Fellowship a year after Joshua Daniel

  1. John K

    This blog is an eye opener.
    I know of a family of 4 that are in charge for a center in north India. LEF gives him a salary of Rs.5000. They ask them to live by faith.
    How can a family live with such small salary?
    All the tithes and offerings should be sent to HQ so they can extend their corporate territory.

    • GE

      John K

      I fully understand your concerns, but I have to disagree with your recommendations.

      Tithes and offerings should be gathered together within local, self-governing fellowships. Income should be formally recorded. There should be an established and defined local church membership which should meet regularly to decide local church issues, including finances, under the guidance of a local leadership called and agreed by that membership. It is Biblical for the local fellowship to annexe a portion of its income to support its local pastor, that is, the man who has been especially set aside by the local fellowship for the regular ministry of the Word and prayer, and for the organisation and undertakng of other pastoral duties. If the local church is small, and the local income is insufficient to support that man wholly, he and his local church may feel it right and necessary for him to work, alongside the carrying out of his pastoral duties.

      The income of a pastor should ideally reflect the average income of his flock , but that may not be viable, and all such details should be decided locally at membership meetings (the church leaders also being, as individuals, formal members of the local body of Christ).

      In the New Testament we see that in terms of the pastorate, ‘the labourer is worthy of his hire’, and also that we ‘should not muzzle the ox which grinds the corn’. However we also see that Paul worked as a tentmaker at times; however given that his calling and position as an apostle was not that of a local church leader, but preceded such offices, we also see indications that the local church leaders who were established during the apostles’ ministries also continued to labour to earn their livings.

      We also see in the epistles that local churches voluntarily assisted other local churches financially (or in kind) from time to time, since their thanks are expressed in writing. Therefore it is appropriate for local churches to support other like-minded local churches, by membership agreement, and when appropriate. They also may be in a position to establish other meetings locally, which in due course will themselves become self-governing local churches. This would be part of the local churches’ missionary activity.

      What we do not ultimately see in the New Testament church is some kind of mega-organisation with many tentacles, to which all income is submitted centrally, and used according to the whims of self-appointed ‘leaders’ accountable to nobody. This is what LEF is, and its attenders need to be encouraged to separate from the LEF ’empire’ and either find real, local, independent fellowships where they can learn and grow away from the domination and false teaching of LEF and the Daniels, or meet together as local groups, again independently of LEF, with a view to becoming true local Christian fellowships themselves, once they have studied sufficient ecclesiology together to know what a biblical local church is, how it should come about, and who should lead it (as raised up by the Lord, and called by the Lord, with that call being tested and confirmed by the local fellowship).

      As you see from the above, sending money from all over India to a group of very dubious, unaccountable people in the Chennai LEF HQ does not fit into any pattern set out in the NT, or any biblical instruction to the NT churches.

      • GE, on reading John K’s post it appears that he did not mean the last line literally. It appears sarcastic to me and he seems to have missed an exclamation mark! Probably John can clarify.
        But as you write, this concept of sending all offerings to HQ is not fair.

        • GE

          Suniemi

          I stand corrected! On re-reading John K’s post, I think you are right, it was sarcasm! And I thought that I was finally beginning to understand and appreciate Indian humour!

          • John K

            GE/Suniemi,
            I missed the !!!!! mark at the end of that sentence. I totally agree with the framework that was set as an example in the NT. Local churches should have a sovereign status and support their local pastor in their local work. In addition, they should support local community projects (feeding and clothing the homeless, drug rehabilitation, literacy program, sanitation, drinking water, etc). Well known churches in the US that are sovereign do send their church tithes from the total church income to their HQ to maintain their sovereignty and come under the covering of the bigger organization.
            Churches need to follow James 1: 27 principle rather than accumulating finances in a central location and avoiding accountability.

            • GE

              John K

              Coming under the over-arching, even if benevolent, covering of a larger organisation can be the thin end of the wedge, though – thinking of the Anglican denomination in the UK, or the Church of Scotland, or one of the Presbyterian groups. There may be practical advantages, but inevitably decisions affecting local, in theory sovereign, groups start to be made outside of the wishes and authority of the local membership. In such a way homosexual thinking and practices are gradually being tolerated and then embraced by some erstwhile evangelical denominations, overriding the opposition of local groups by means of others voting higher up in the chain of ‘authority’. Sending representatives only, rather than deciding at a local membership meeting, dilutes local decisionmaking and authority. When people stray away from the sole authority of the Bible these things happen. Even a loose affiliation of allegedly like-minded churches can be negatively affected by one group being more ‘liberal’ than others. One such association I know of well seems gradually to be imposing the will of the association officers on local memberships and pastors. My understanding of this is that, since the association holds funds (contributions by all the local groups out of their income), and is able to help struggling groups, that help is now being accompanied by an expectation that the local churches will accede to certain recommendations or wishes of the association. Thus I was dismayed to find a man, not a member of any of the local like-minded churches but a member of a different (in theological terms) church-planting mission from the USA, regularly occupying the pulpit in those local churches. When I expressed my dismay to one local pastor of a struggling fellowship, he looked rather embarrassed and said ‘Well, we have been asked by the Association to welcome them in’. Difficult to refuse, perhaps, if your continuation as a local pastor depends on the Association topping up your stipend! Better a pastor who may also have to be a ‘tent-maker’, than one who feels that he and his family need a regular income to survive, so has to compromise his thinking to accommodate that of benefactors outside of his local sphere of authority.
              I should add that the pastor in question is a fine preacher and pastor, but his little church has now closed and he is elsewhere. Rumour has it that the Association officers had something to do with this………..

              Thinking of churches offering ‘social help’, that too needs to be carefully thought out. My little church contributes in kind to the local food bank, but such contributions are voluntarily made by individual members and collected regularly from the church by the food bank staff. Since the main purpose of the church is to share the Gospel and encourage believers to grow in grace, I tend to think that supporting community projects should be the decision of individual Christians rather than of a whole fellowship; but if a local church does this, it must be the by decision of its membership. Local churches do spontaneously do ‘good works’ at their own level, which to me seems more useful to the Gospel than being part of a larger, secular endeavour. It is better to have individual contact with people, leaving such projects as larger scale drug rehab. and literacy programmes to the experts. Of course some individual believers may feel the Lord leading them to take part. My church involves itself in a modest way with local residential care for the elderly, visiting and helping individuals ad hoc, and holding little monthly services in care homes. We also run a modest Christian book shop in the market, and it is heartening that people often come in looking for guidance and comfort, practical and spiritual.

              Just a few thoughts……..it all comes back to how best to apply Biblical principles within the framework of Biblically sovereign local fellowships, doesn’t it?

            • Ivan Talbot

              When is the Church going to get involved in politics and stop the progress of gay rights in Australia? It’s alright to preach the scriptures, but how about putting some of that into practice by exercising your voting power. I need 500 good people to start a political party to stop Sodom and Gomorrah in Australia. How about it Christians. Be doers of the word not just hearers.

            • Ivan Talbot, are you being sarcastic? Church and politics do not mix well. Jesus kept away from the politics of His time.The church should draw people in by it’s example and love and not via force.

            • Ivan Talbot

              Hi suniemi, Australia is a Constitutional Monarchy, the Sovereign is not only Head of State but “The Defender of the Faith”. I’m afraid politics and religion are one and the same as far as I can see, and especially from a Christian point of view. Unfortunately our Sovereign has done a terrible job of “Defending the Faith” by signing Acts promoting homosexuality and same-sex marriage, not to mention abortion as well. Every Christian must speak out and exercise their voting power to stop the advancement of Satanic laws in this country. Christ did and was crucified, John the Baptised did and was beheaded. In Revelation Chapter 3, Verse 15, Christ talked about the last Church, i.e. the “lukewarm” Church, that was neither “cold nor hot”. This is the present Church of our day. As the good book say “faith without works is dead”, and Christ is going to “spew” this Church out of His mouth because they did nothing but preach love and tolerance (the gays mantra). Once you have the mind of Christ, you are expected to do something with it. It must have some working out in society (that’s what the political system is). That’s the “example” the Church sets, and of course “not via force”. There are Christian parties in Australia but up till now they have not achieved a great deal, but never-the-less they exist. We need more of them. Will you join us?

  2. Ivan Talbot

    Is anyone taking over Joshua Daniel’s fellowship in WA and is there a phone number and address?

    • GE

      Ivan Talbot:

      Don’t even think about trying to contact LEF in the USA (or anywhere else). If you have read this website and its blogs and posts from the beginning, you will see that as American and Canadian people gradually realised and acknowledged how corrupt and cultish LEF is, based on the history and behaviour of Joshua Daniel and his family, they either left it themselves, or ejected him. Thankfully little or nothing is left of this man’s influence in North America/Canada or Germany. When the Canadians ejected the Daniels they (the Canadians) may have continued together under a different name. I know of no LEF fellowships remaining active in the USA except the small church in Michigan which The Daniels bought out of other people’s money, and use for their family and other purposes. Part of the (minimal) LEF activity in this area is listed as a business (operated for the benefit of John Daniel) – his private home is listed as an ‘LEF centre’.

      Steer clear is my advice and that of most people who know about this Daniel family-run, Daniel family-benefitting enterprise.

    • GE

      Ivan Talbot

      This is in response to your posts about politics and the ‘homosexual lobby’ (I cannot find a ‘reply’ button underneath those posts).

      1. It not clear what you expect from non-Australian Christians in connection with this. Obviously Christians do have a duty to encourage godly lawmaking in their respective countries by using the votes that they have been given to elect those whom they think are the most appropriate representatives for this purpose. However a non-Australian has no vote in Australia. Most readers of this blog are not Australian.

      2. It is indeed sad that the British Queen, for whatever reason, signed the document allowing the perverted desires of the minority to become ‘legal’ marriage. In the UK Christians openly protested and took whatever legal means available to oppose the passing of this legislation. I watched the debate in Parliament at the time. I attended related meetings which I felt had been set up for godly purposes and in a God-honouring manner. Some Christians were, and still are, even more vociferous in their protest. You can look up David Skinner on the internet – a pensioner who continues to campaign against this evil, even being physically attacked – and who constantly tries to bring the full truth about the prevalent sexual evils to the attention of those who remain unaware or indifferent. Nevertheless, for His own reasons, and despite all our efforts, God has not yet seen fit to stop the flow of this corruption. However Christians continue to act according to their consciences in such matters, despite persecution, and you may be aware of the Christian Institute, a group of British lawyers specifically engaged in defending those persecuted because of their moral stance in accordance with their Christian faith, especially in their work places. Asher’s bakery is one still current example.

      3. I disagree that ‘politics and religion are one and the same thing’, although widespread and sound Christian faith should certainly dictate the nature of a country ‘s politics. Christians will always be in the minority, a ‘remnant’, and it follows that it is unlikely that any government will comprise largely Christians. Therefore ‘politics’ will always be more secular than religious by nature; this statement is not based on experience, but on the Bible’s repeated reminders that Christians will always constitute a small proportion of any current population, though in times of genuine revival that proportion may temporarily expand. I think that Jesus’s encounter with those who tried to trap him by asking whether he and his followers paid taxes in part answers your contention that politics and Christianity need to be synonymous.

      4. As for your example of Christ and John the Baptist ‘speaking out ‘, and being killed for this : what, exactly, did they speak, and why? John preached about Christ, and Christ preached about himself, the one who could save the listeners from their slavery to sin in any of its manifestations. In so doing they highlighted particularly relevant evils amongst those to whom they preached, but it was always with the understanding that Christ provides salvation from the need to commit them. People needed to understand their own sinful natures before they could experience any desire to be freed from them. Whilst I agree with what Suniemi has written, perhaps in his brevity of reply he failed to add that an essential part of the Christian ministry is to identify what sin is, and what its effects are. However this is not to be done outside of the context of love and example, as he says, and no-one can be forced into the kingdom of God (as people have been forced into communism, or are being forced into confessing Islamic faith). In summary, John and Jesus Christ did not merely protest against evil and accuse those who killed them. They did this in the context of the wonderful message of salvation, although this is not recorded in detail in the case of John – nevertheless Herod would have been aware of John’s connection with Jesus, and probably of Messianic prophecy.

      5. Once again, I need to ask you what you expect Christians, first Australian, and then non-Australian, to do in response to your post. Also, is whatever you expect them to do in accordance with established biblical principles? We are not called to emulate every historic action performed by Jesus, or even by John the Baptist, but to live our lives in accordance with God’s instructions to the church, now made available to us by The Word ( Jesus), and in his Word.

      6. Now might be an appropriate time to ask you why you previously wanted contact details for an LEF centres in WA. If in any way this was to join up with LEF, then that would be in contradiction to your post about the homosexual lobby in Australia. LEF is a currently corrupt organisation operating under the guise of christianity. The Bible condemns sin masquerading as godliness more than any other. No-one can expect to overcome the sin, sexual or otherwise, in society if they choose to consort and operate with hirelings. But then perhaps I have misunderstood your purpose in asking about LEF……….

      • Ivan Talbot

        GE. Pardon my ignorance, I thought this site covered Australia etc. as Joshua Daniels was from WA.
        Perhaps I can answer your last point (No.6) first. I was very impressed with Joshua Daniel’s TV programs and thought their church would make good candidates for my 500 electoral people for my party, not knowing anything about their church operation.
        I did contact them, but their representative failed to initiate any further discussion about my political party and their involvement. He didn’t have the courtesy to reply, even though he said he would. So, thinking your site was a Christian group, I sought to obtain my 500 candidates from you.
        I do hope their are enough responsible and like minded people out there to join my party.

        To your other points (No.5); I expected all Christians to rally to my cause i.e. the reversal of Satanic laws wherever they might be – “united we stand and divided we fall”. As there are thousands if not millions of Christians in Australia, their voting power can stop the flow of Satanic laws here. Numbers is what counts in politics (this is fact) and all politicians know it and fear it.
        As far as non-Australians are concerned; e.g the UK Christians, they can support us and we can support them in all manners and ways. For example, your recommendation of David Skinner to me and the Christian Institute, both of whom I have not heard about is priceless knowledge which I can use.
        Christians are, and should be, of one mind and body in Christ. I expect all Christians to rally to my cause and post on your site. Each country could start their own resistance movement or party in opposition to Satan and his followers. They are all quite visible to the naked eye, such as our politicians and those that have come out of the closet.
        Just living your lives in accordance with God’s instructions is not enough – “faith without works is dead”. There must be some visible manifestation of your faith, and I don’t mean just being good. There must be some force and effect in society.

        As far as your point No.4 is concerned; I don’t think people need to understand their own sinful natures. All they need to know is that Christ died for their sins (whatever they might be) and now they are set free from sin. To tell you the truth, I was quite relieved that I didn’t have to do anything to be saved and that Christ did all the work on the cross. I just had to accept it. But they also must know that their is a price to being set free i.e that Christ now owns them – “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten”, Revelation Chapter 3, Verse 19. Christ is not that great loving God as some would have us believe, and those that do not toe the line die the “sin unto death”, Romans Chapter 6, Verse 16.
        As to point No.3; If the leader of a nation is Christian (as in my case), and there are two branches of law i.e. Temporal and Spiritual, politics and religion are one and the same (or should be) – as you rightly stated “sound Christian faith should certainly dictate the nature of a country’s politics.

        As to your point 2; God has seen fit to stop the flow of corruption in the world, and I can tell you it is vested in you and me.
        So, Christians unite and tell me what you think of my idea (party).
        I must also tell you that Christ has given me some incredible gifts to help my party succeed, and if your interested I’ll tell you. It’ll rock your socks off.
        Pardon my English.

        • GE

          Ivan Talbot

          From reading your response, I fear that you did not really understand mine.

          This is not my website, but it was set up by a concerned Christian who wanted to warn others about the dangers of associating with LEF, the religious organisation fostered by Joshua Daniel and his family, which supports that family and their associates financially. Those dangers are not immediately obvious from Joshua Daniel’s broadcasts, although anyone with a good understanding of Biblical doctrine would eventually realise that LEF is a cultish organisation. If you read this website and the Lef Whistleblower site you will find this demonstrated very clearly and on many ways. Therefore if Joshua Daniel did not reply to you, that is to your advantage.

          There are a couple of random, obscure Australians who seem to depend on LEF for preaching opportunities in India to large groups of vulnerable Indians, but apart from their minimal activity in Australia, and the very few ‘disciples’ of the Daniels who meet outside of India, LEF is Indian-based. The Daniel family are Indians, although they like to emulate westerners for some reason.

          It is still very unclear what you expect from Indians in your endeavours. Whatever it is, this is not the place for your campaign. Perhaps your purposes would be better served by setting up your own dedicated website.

  3. E.S.

    This website is so much better than that other one. Here you seem genuinely interested in biblical principles and the betterment of believers, and not primarily motivated by defeating the existing power-holders.

    • GE

      There is room for both websites in the process of getting rid of false teachers and pernicious, cultish groups which damage simple people and their families. I am thankful for both bloggers, and I understand that both bloggers appreciate each other’s efforts and allow for their differing approaches…..it is not, after all, competition!

      Anything that exposes evil deeds is helpful, even if we would not go about things, or personally express ourselves, in the same way.

      • E.S.

        Exposing evil deeds is fine. But it can get too far if fact and fiction and the kitchen sink are thrown to the task.

        The motivations of that other website are abundantly clear. The promulgators are immature Christians at best.

        I thank God for this website.

        • GE

          The promoters of these websites cannot be held entirely responsible for what is posted. The Daniels and LEF generally have for decades suppressed valid enquiry from their followers, and have refused to be accountable to anyone for anything. They have done this through the worst kind of bullying and spiritual oppression. It is therefore important that those who have suffered under this are given as free a rein as possible to express themselves about these matters now. I do know that the WBs who run that site do not always publish what is posted (for example, one LEF supporter and apologist, a man, kept trying to post obscenities), but in the main everyone has freedom of expression.

          The WBs themselves, to my knowledge, do not post fiction, although the different posters may make what appear to be somewhat wild accusations. The depths to which LEF and the Daniels have sunk over the years mean that there is very little in the way of accusation that does not ring true and/or cannot be confirmed by others, or otherwise validated. In the case of Betty Daniel’s recent repeated allegation of the starvation of her father, Joshua Daniel, by her mother, Lily Daniel, this allegation can be clearly seen being made by Betty on her Facebook page (under her other name, Liz Van Camp). It is a serious allegation if true. If Betty is lying, then that is also serious, because (amazing as it may seem) there are still apparently people who ‘follow’ her, and she has somehow acquired a TV programme which broadcasts to the Telegu people, who know nothing of her past and present instability. She has also got herself on to some kind of ‘preaching tour’ in South India, and has promoted herself as a ‘pastor’ in the USA, where certain Americans who attend her third husband’s church, with dubious theological understanding, have visited India with her and advertised themselves as ‘missionaries to India’.

          As regards the WB who has posted her family’s story of suffering because of the Daniels’s manipulation of her ingenuous father, this is not fiction. It was not easy for her to publish this, but she did so because she knows that other families have been similarly destroyed by LEF. She hopes that they, and especially the downtrodden wives, will thereby be encouraged to combat the evil influence of LEF in their families, and not allow their children to be further abused.

          I too thank God for ‘Suniemi’. However if you accuse the Whistleblowers who run the other site of promoting ‘fiction’, then you need to give examples of what you know or think to be untrue. You write that ‘the motivations of that other website (WB) are abundantly clear’, but you do not explain to what conclusion that abundant clarity has led you.

          ‘Suniemi’ courageously set the ball rolling with this site, and was followed some months later by the Whistleblower site. It is certainly the case that Suniemi’s approach was to put the questionable nature of LEF into the context of the biblical understanding of ‘ecclesia’, the doctrine of the church. He has also provided (with a great deal of effort and personal sacrifice of time) a synopsis of an earlier frank assessment of LEF and Joshua Daniel contained within a larger volume written by a German scholar who has studied the nature of indigenous ‘evangelical’ groups in South India.

          The Whistleblower site concerns itself more with reports, in practical terms, of the various abuses which have taken place in LEF, ultimately as a result of Joshua Daniel’s, and others’, sacrificing of the observation of biblical principles concerning the formation of indigenous local churches on the altar of his/their desire for power and acclaim. You state that ‘the promulgators are immature christians at best’. Surely this is at the root of the whole LEF problem? LEF followers are misled, abused, and untaught by those who should have been nurturing them in the faith. The blind have been leading the blind. If people caught up in LEF had been properly nurtured into spiritual maturity, neither of these websites would have needed to come about. To write scornfully of those who are trying to release people from LEF bondage is not helpful. However immature they may seem to be, at least they are doing something, and getting results.

          Finally, in your first post, you advocate ‘biblical principles and the betterment of believers’ as being suitable motives for such websites. This is certainly true, but there has been a history in LEF of more enlightened followers attempting to bring these factors into LEF, only to be defeated by the obstinate refusal of Joshua Daniel et al. either to acknowledge the evil that was happening, or to desist from it, or to show any interest whatsoever in the welfare of the flock, probably knowing that the application of such desirable objectives would result in loss to him and his family of the power and prestige that had become their drugs of choice. Revelations about actual misdeeds, in the light of the failure of more noble means, are perhaps another way of opening up the consciousnesses of ordinary LEF followers to the realities of the cultish group in which they are (sometimes unknowingly ) entrapped.

          May I gently suggest that it is not helpful to try to introduce a sort of rivalry between the Suniemi and Whistleblowers websites, a rivalry which I know neither blogger either feels or wants?

          • E.S.

            The rivalry that I supposedly plot to instigate figures only in your imagination. You read and extrapolate far too much. It would be a waste of time to reply.

            Let me briefly state that I confine my impressions to the writings of the promulgators of WB site, or else it would not be fair. I stand by my comments.

          • E.S.

            I stand by my comments, which are based on the promulgators of that website and not of other writers. The very selective use of one Liz Van Camp’s rantings should alone tell you that not all accusations are fact. I also have some inside knowledge. Note: I don’t claim perfect knowledge.

            I have dealt with convicted criminals before. No matter what crimes they have committed, not every wriggle of the toe is a scheme or an attack.

            The very idea of introducing rivalry is ridiculous and produces no useful result. This concept only figures in your over-imaginative mind. I only wrote to thank this website for keeping on principle, which is rare on the internet.

          • E.S.

            It is disconcerting that you will not allow me a right of reply to GE’s accusations.

            Sad really. Maybe you relish your version of soap opera justice as well.

            • E.S. if you don’t use a different disposable email addresses for each post, you will be able to reply to G.E. without waiting for my approval. I don’t check email daily and your posts were held up. If you are genuinely interested to discuss, please use your own email and avoid proxy servers. I don’t share email addresses or any other information.
              As mentioned in your first comment, I am more interested in biblical principles and the betterment of believer. If people don’t understand the truth, they will merely move away from LEF to another similar or worse organisation. So I want people’s eyes, ears & hearts to be opened to the truth and not merely expose the faults of LEF and its leaders. Christians are wary of exposing other Christians. So even if the other website seems wrongly motivated and seems to have a bit of fiction, it is doing a job which nobody else dares to do. So I cannot denounce it.

            • LEF WB

              ES,
              How short lived was your appreciation and gratitude to ‘GOD’ was about this blog and blogger?
              All that made you to show your true colors and accuse Suniemi of exhibiting “soap opera justice’ was that there was a little bit of delay in Suniemi approving and publishing your comments. As impatient and hasty as you are, you try to dismiss someone else’s efforts to do what s/he is doing to expose the evil in LEF as originating from kitchen sink. People like you amuse me at the most and believe me when I say that I have seen enough people like you who have no guts to talk to the person concerned about enjoy ‘talking around.’ That is the modus operandi of people trained in LEF and other similar cults. Even with your best efforts you could not disguise your true intentions. Makes me wonder if you were really ‘appreciating ‘ Suniemi or were using your appreciation to voice your displeasure about the other site. Whatever be the case, your angry outburst at Suniemi did not bring out your ‘noble intentions’ of appreciating one over the other.

          • E.S.

            Wow. True colours of WB finally showing.

            • GE

              Whatever you may feel the ‘true colours’ of WB to be does not alter the unpleasant and damaging nature of the ‘true colours’ of LEF and its Daniel regime which have been increasingly revealed over nearly two years now. WB is not bullying vulnerable Indians and conning them into handing over money and property to unscrupulous people. The Laymen’s Evangelical Fellowship is.

              Fact is fact.

            • E.S.

              I wrote to encourage Suniemi to write more. He’s on the right track. If he feels that he’s written enough about LEF’s errors, he could write about some other broad ranging matters.

              If the author of this blog continues to focus on biblical principles, he would not only benefit those caught in the LEF web, but also other people.

              =======

              To the witch-hunters (G.E. and W.B.) who want to stigmatize me and doubt every keystroke of mine and – worst of all – put words in my mouth, I can only say, you are masters at your craft.

            • GE

              Nobody intends being a gratuitous ‘witch-hunter’ here, but this dialogue is becoming some kind of battle of words and wills. If ES is as anxious as Suniemi, GE and WB to see an end to the damaging practices and infuences of LEF in relation to vulnerable victims, then he/she will hopefully agree that we should abandon this thread and unite in encouraging Suniemi in his endeavours, and in particular in his establishing of the Biblical principles which demonstrate how far short LEF’s practices and preaching fall of its claims to being ‘Christian’.

    • Terry Huffman

      They need to be defeated.

  4. The editorial of the Indian Christ is Victor which was earlier signed with an ambiguous “JD” has no signature this month. There is an article by late N. Daniel and late Mrs N. Daniel and the usual mini extracts from random books, the ministry report and Student Camp announcement. There are two small notes from John Daniel: one reminding that two days in November are special days to remember his grandparents (it’s odd that it appears in the December edition) and the other is a Christmas greeting. I wonder how a big organisation allows its new leader to sit comfortably far away in America with limited involvement in its activities for over an year.

    • GE

      If the LEF were a true church, John Daniel would not be its ‘leader’. If it were a properly regulated business organisation, John Daniel would not be its CEO (or even hold an executive or managerial position). Because LEF does not have a structure or disciplinary code appertaining to either entity, un-gifted persons such as John Daniel, who has apparently been unable to retain or obtain employment, and who, shockingly, publicly ‘preached’ that ‘Noah sat at the feet of Jesus’ at a recent Guyana retreat meeting, can sit very comfortably in far off America, in the knowledge that his and his family’s not inconsiderable needs will forever be met via money extracted from naive, vulnerable, often poor Indians thousands of miles away.

      People really must stop supporting these parasites. After all, John Daniel and family are quite at liberty to become beneficiaries of his elder sister Betty’s Miami Village Church food and second-hand clothing giveaways, which she and her husband are currently advertising on Facebook (copious pictures of themselves ‘blessing’ the lined-up inhabitants of South Bend with such items – although surely the ‘left hand is not supposed to know what the right hand is doing’? But then there was no internet when Jesus preached thus…….).

  5. GE

    Thank you for posting again. We have missed your balanced and honest articles.

    I suspect that the Daniel family is too busy trying to avoid questions from officialdom about LEF financial and other abuses to have time to write original material for their magazine! What has been written, as you relate it, namely the deliberate manipulation of Bible verses to give further kudos to their late paterfamilias, Joshua Daniel, is really quite shocking!

    Ms. Van Camp’s Facebook posts are, to say the least, embarrassing. I used to read them with the same fearful anticipation that is experienced by those who out of curiosity dip into horror stories – happily she has now blocked me (as she does all who dare to question her spiritual pronouncements, activities, and motivations), so the temptation to submit myself further to the possibility of being horrified has largely been removed……she has not, however, blocked me from her ‘Betty Daniel’ FB page, so if that does happen we shall know that she reads this blog!

    As you imply, the cult of personality is no stranger to Christian circles – even such luminaries as Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were unwilling subjects of it, both in life and even now in death. However this is not surprising, given the Holy Spirit power and Biblical/theological authority of their preaching, coupled with lives that were led in keeping with what they preached. What I find hard to understand is how sincere believers can continue indefinitely to be so attracted to the often incoherent ramblings of a cheap ‘showman’ like Joshua Daniel. A variation on the old adage, ‘Love is blind’, perhaps; or another ploy of Satan to send seekers along wrong and perilous paths, as in ‘Pilgrim’s Progress’.

    • GE

      Yes, Betty Daniel alias Liz van Camp alias Mrs. Lambdin is definitely keeping up with these blogs and posts! She and her consort husband are currently in Chennai, apparently for her to record more of her embarrassing ‘sermons’ for what appears to be a rather obscure Telegu TV station (which profound utterances have to be translated, as Betty/Liz/Mrs. L. does not appear to be familiar with what should be her mother tongue). Interestingly her brother, John Daniel, is also in Chennai, ‘preaching’, even though he has been summoned to appear before government officials in respect of, inter alia, alleged financial irregularities; it would appear that the resulting risks attached to his presence in Chennai have had to be balanced against the Daniel clan’s need of money over there in the USA, and the attraction to money won (nothing new there, then!). However John D. is reported to have boasted that the Indian authorities will not be able to touch him, as he has American citizenship. Meanwhile Lily Daniel is allegedly running to and fro, including to Delhi, trying to persuade Sonia Gandhi (or anyone) to intervene and stop the investigations; as someone remarked elsewhere, playing the ‘poor, elderly widow with fatherless children’ card. I wonder whether greasing the palms of those from whom she seeks such assistance (with LEF tithes and offerings) has been a factor in her travels?

      How shameful that LEF, an organisation that claims to be Gospel-inspired, has been itself unable or unwilling to address the deeply seated rot in its midst, so that the secular authorities have to step in. But then the necessity for a clear church disciplinary statement that applies to all (even the ‘guru’ himself and his family) has been conveniently ignored or suppressed by the Daniels for generations.

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